Forum:Prototype Limits
Moved from Talk:Sprite#Prototype Limits One more question. I don't see anything in the article (might have missed it though) explaining that there is a limit of two prototypes per sprite. Is this not the case? Every sprite other than 11 of the trolls has two prototypes (if you count combined prototypings as "two"). Additionally, if a sprite prototypes the very moment it touches an object, would it not be impossible for sprites prototyped only a single time to manipulate objects without accidentally prototyping them? That seems like a heavy restriction, but given the "accidental" prototypings we've seen thusfar it may be accurate. TricksterWolf (talk) 09:48, December 27, 2012 (UTC) :That's the thing: We haven't exactly received direct confirmation or denial that there is a limit of two prototypings, or at all. And yes, it would indeed be impossible. We should find out soon though: Dirk is about to touch Arquiusprite's muscle. 09:51, December 27, 2012 (UTC) :Well sprites don't prototype the moment they are touched, without issue. And Jane's Kernelsprite passed though her house's walls without prototyping the house. I guess it is possible that a sprite could choose not to be prototyped, or that touching isn't enough, rather it has to be combined in some specific way. In any case there hasn't been any exposition on it and there likely never will be, because the answer is simply "video game logic". - The Light6 (talk) 10:01, December 27, 2012 (UTC) ::I'd think a house would be far too large to be prototyped, and the only things that seem to be "accidentally" prototyped are living or formerly-living things. But you're right about John high-fiving the sprite. I'd forgotten all about that. I don't know if I'd agree "we'll probably never know" though. It's a big comic and there's a game coming out eventually so it's always a possibility (I'd have no way to estimate likelihood esp. since lots of things we assumed wouldn't be returned to, have been). TricksterWolf (talk) 10:11, December 27, 2012 (UTC) :::Gl'bgolyb was the size of a city and was prototyped without issue, Jane's house is tiny in comparison. Also given the game will be limited in what it can do, you will probably just select what you want to be prototyped, fancy complexities like touching, and accidental touching, etc probably won't factor into it. - The Light6 (talk) 10:16, December 27, 2012 (UTC) I think I've got it: *Items cannot be prototyped by the sprite moving around on its own. It may or may not have a consciousness (Dave thought it was suggesting to prototype Lil Cal), but when it comes to actually prototyping, the kernelsprite cannot take the action upon itself. *Any inanimate object (including dead beings) that is thrown, falls into, or enters the sprite in some way independent of the sprite's own movement, then it is prototyped. *A living being will not be prototyped upon touching the sprite if prototyping itself was not the being's intent, and if the being does inted to prototype itself then it will be prototyped. 12:28, December 27, 2012 (UTC) :I just want to point out to tricksterwolf that are never living, and items which may be ambiguously alive, dead or never living have been prototyped, I can point to Lil Hal, Lil Cal, The Frog Statue, stuffed Harlequin, and Roses tentacle princess, and I also remember that both John attempted to prototype a book, and a command was entered for Rose to attempt the same (though she decided that was a bad idea) whether or not it would even be possible for the books to be prototyped is unclear, as are the rules in general for what may and may not be prototyped, I guess all we really know is what has and has not been prototyped at this point. Whohoohuwhu (talk) 03:50, June 5, 2014 (UTC) ::Since this topic has been revived, I do need to ask if people think my "finalized" bullet list above is canon enough and appropriate enough to add to the main article. With page links, of course. 08:32, June 5, 2014 (UTC) :::So far, all accidental prototypings can be explained by kernelsprites' attraction to the dead (Nannasprite's ashes) and the doomed (I think it's sort of vaguely implied that Gl'bgolyb was mortally wounded by a meteor during the Reckoning). I've also noticed that every successful prototyping has been either a living being, a formerly living being, or an object in the form of a living being (2 dolls, a puppet and the head of a statue). -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 09:38, June 5, 2014 (UTC) ::::I actually do object to the bullets as I'm not willing to accept at this point that a something living may not be accidentally prototyped as a result of touching their sprite without intending to become incorporated, I think that the criteria is more likely that anything to touches the core prior to tier 2 is then prototyped, I do know however that Roses house appears to have been an exception (possibly due to the sprite touching it on it's own, the sprites intention, or some other reason)Whohoohuwhu (talk) 11:31, June 5, 2014 (UTC) ::::EDIT:what of Lil Hal Gordon Ecker? he does not appearently fall into any of those catagories, and then also there is the immaterial ghost of Aradia, which does not appear to fall into those categories either, by my reckoning Whohoohuwhu (talk) 11:39, June 5, 2014 (UTC) :::::But John high fived his sprite, without intending to become prototyped, and subsequently was not. Maybe it would be different if it was tier one, but why speculate instead of going off the info we have? All other living beings prototyped were either corpses (thus acting as objects) or intentionally prototyped themselves: Aradia, doomed Dave. And Cal is absolutely the form of a living being. 19:06, June 5, 2014 (UTC) ::::::John did high five his sprite, but he did not touch the core, I would be willing to say that all successful prototypes with living aspects had intention, I would even be willing to say that it might be a criteria, but I'm not unwilling to say that unintentionally prototyping oneself is not possible. as for Aradia if a ghost has a form then she would fall into one of those categories, but I figured since she was immaterial that meant she did not have a form. I don't remember bringing up Doomed Dave, but he was living, and I meant to say Lil Hal... I wasn't aware you had seen me mistakenly say Lil Cal, wouldn't Lil Hal fall into a category Gordon Ecker did not mention? Whohoohuwhu (talk) 19:47, June 5, 2014 (UTC) :::::::I think sprites function somewhat on the needs of their owner. John needed someone caring with a funny personality to watch over him so it took the personalities of the harlequin and Nanna. Dave needed someone to protect him. Thus leading to the dead crow with the sword and the doomed Dave so it could acquire a weapon and the ability to use it. Rose needed a friend to get her to be a little more open and less creepy. So the sprite chose Frigglish (the only thing she felt she could open up to) and the doll (to satisfy her love of the strange). Jade needed a way to become independent and powerful. To achieve this the sprite accepted Bec and her dreamself so she could acquire the powers of Bec through god tier. Of course a lot of this could just be chalked up to Hussie needing it to happen for the story to progress. The2ndplayer (talk) 20:15, June 5, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::re: examples and categories ::::::::*Accidental prototypings: ::::::::**Nanna's ashes (formerly living being, covered by the dead and doomed rule). ::::::::**Gl'bgolyb (fell in after she died in the Reckoning , covered by the dead and doomed rule) ::::::::*Successful deliberate prototypings: ::::::::**Harlequin doll (inanimate object shaped like a living being) ::::::::**Jaspers (dead cat in a suit, covered by the dead and doomed rule) ::::::::**Eldritch Princess (inanimate object shaped like a living being) ::::::::**Rambunctious Crow (dead crow with a sword through it, covered by the dead and doomed rule) ::::::::**Lil Cal (creepy puppet, may or may not be alive, but definitely qualifies as an object shaped like a living being) ::::::::**Alternate Future Dave (living doomed alternate timeline SBURB player, covered by the dead and doomed rule) ::::::::**Frog Temple statue head (inanimate object shaped like a living being) ::::::::**Ghost Aradia (ghost, covered by the dead and doomed rule) ::::::::**Lil Hal's cracked shades (covered by the dead and doomed rule, arguably also fets in the dolls and statues category since he's an artificial person) ::::::::Maybe we should say something along the lines of "kernelsprites are attracted to the dead and the doomed, and both known instances of accidental prototyping have involved the remains of dead guardians or ancestors". -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 02:03, June 6, 2014 (UTC) ←Yeah let's reset this indent. Anyway, Hal: are you saying he counted as doomed because of Dirk almost destroying him? I guess, but I dunno. I will say I don't think it's impossible for a non-dead or doomed being to be prototyped, in fact it's canonically stated that . As such, this particular point is irrelevant to the discussion: it has been directly addressed, and no more needs to be said. Interjecting a little bit before I move on to my next point to address the "help the players with their weaknesses" thing: Rose definitely needed help opening up to her friends, and trusting people in general, but she was hardly creepy. There are several instances of Equius's friends being a little bit uncomfortable, sometimes more so, with his general presence, but I don't recall this ever being the case with Rose. More relevantly, and to stop being a hypocrite: there were far more important ways Jade's sprite helped her than some eventual convulted method of powerup. Confronting Jadesprite was a massively important moment in Jade's development: it showed her that being scared and upset all the time was absolutely no way to solve any problems or make any progress. As for Hal, ironically he's a living being in the form of an object, instead of an object in the form of a living being. Regard Dirk copying his psyche as a scratch (in a very loose sense), and AR also counts as a formerly living being. I'll concede on the point about John not touching the core of his sprite, by the way. It makes a reasonable amount of sense to me. I'd just have to question what would define the "core" for a hatched sprite. Anyway, revised list: *Items cannot be prototyped by the sprite moving around on its own. It may or may not have a consciousness (Dave thought it was suggesting to prototype Lil Cal), but when it comes to actually prototyping, the kernelsprite cannot take the action upon itself. *Any inanimate object (including dead beings) that is thrown, falls into, or enters the sprite in some way independent of the sprite's own movementwill be prototyped, even if it is accidental and not an intentional action on any sentient entity's part. *A living being will not be prototyped upon touching the sprite if prototyping itself was not the being's intent, and if the being does intend to prototype itself, and touches the sprite's core, then it will be prototyped. 05:20, June 6, 2014 (UTC) :My objection was not that I thought that it required both contact with the core and intent, thought it might, what I was saying is that we've not seen anyone touch the core not intending to become incorporated in the sprite. I think that it's probably one or the other, either touching the sprite with the intention of joining into it will cause a being to be prototyped, or that they only must touch the core, accidentally or with intentionally Whohoohuwhu (talk) 08:50, June 6, 2014 (UTC) ::Yeah, Becquerel was alive and undoomed, but he deliberately self-protoyped. Lil Hal was arguably dead or doomed, depending on how badly his glasses were damaged, and, even if he wasn't technically alive, he was a thinking being and an artifical person, and his prototyping was deliberate. The fact that Nanna Egbert's ashes and Gl'bgolyb were able to be accidentally prototyped, while the house was not, might be related to kernelsprites' stated tendancy of being attracted to the dead and the doomed (the fact that Nanna Egbert was John's Ancestor and Gl'bgolyb was Feferi's lusus might also be a contributing factor, explaining why none of the trollsprites accidentally tier 2 self-prototyped with any dead or doomed imps or ogres). ::Theory: I suspect that objects which are conceptually distant from "living or formerly living being", such as books, hats and houses, are generally less compatible and harder to prototype (even when they do fit with the themes of the sprite and player, like Colonel Sassacre's Daunting Text), while objects which are conceptually close to "living or formerly living being", like dolls, statues and AI sunglasses are generally fairly easy to prototype. ::Theory: I suspect that multi-part objects can be prototyped using a single slot as long as they can be conceptually lumped together as a singular thing. For example, "Nanna Egbert's ashes", "a one-armed, one-eyed harlequin doll", "an eldritch princess doll", "Jaspers and his trademark suit" or "a crow with a sword through it" and so on fit in a single slot because they can all be conceptualized as "something" or "something with accessories". Meanwhile, "the frozen remains of two trolls, in several pieces" are conceptually "two things", so they take up two prototying slots. ::In summary.... ::Factors which seem to facilitate prototyping: ::*Dead or doomed. (Stated to be extremely common. Of the 30 prototypings we've seen, 24 or 25 fit into this category.) ::*Strong connection with the player (player's ancestor, player's guardian, player's pet, player's alternate timeline self, player's dream self, player's ghost, AI based on the player). (Of the 30 prototypings we've seen, 18 fit clearly into this category.) ::*Deliberate intent to prototype. (Of the 30 prototypes we've seen, 28 were deliberate.) ::*Is / was either an actual living being, or something made in imitation of a living being (like a doll, a statue or AI shades). (Of the 30 prototypings we've seen, 25 were living or formerly living beings, and the other five, John's harlequin doll, Rose's Eldritch Princess Doll, Lil Cal and Lil Hal, were imitations of living beings.) ::Factors which seem to inhibit prototyping: ::*Not dead or doomed. (Stated to be extremely rare. Of the 30 prototypings we've seen, 5 or 6 fit into this category: John's harlequin doll, Rose's Eldritch Princess doll, Lil Cal, Becquerel, the Frog Statue head and maybe Lil Hal.) ::*No intent to prototype. (Of the 30 prototypings we've seen, only 2 were accidental.) ::*No connection to the player. (Of the 30 prototypings we've seen, only the 7 trollsprite prototypings fit into this category. The Rambunctious Crow was impaled by Dave's sword, and, while Aradia doesn't seem to have any pre-existing interest in frogs, the statue head from the Frog Temple ties in with her interest in archaeology, and was from .) ::-- Gordon Ecker (talk) 11:43, June 6, 2014 (UTC) :::Minor note for things about prototyping houses and whatnot. :::Sprites are capable of phasing through things, the phasing ability is still present even when the sprite isn't fully prototyped. Sprites have some sort of intelligence prior to another intelligence becoming part of it. If a sprite intends to pass through something than it shouldn't have an issue passing through it, regardless of whether it can still be prototyped or not. The fact that sprites can interact with things, be prototyped by surprise, injured, etc, means there are limits to the phasing ability. e.g. The sprite may willingly pass through an object that it doesn't into to prototype itself with, but if the object is forced into the sprite, even by accident (especially if it is caught by surprise), than that object is prototyped regardless of whether the sprite could phase through the object if it was simply travelling around. :::Harlequinsprite avoids being prototyped as opposed to just letting objects it doesn't want pass through it, demonstrating the limits of the phasing powers. Davesprite's injuries from Jack Noir also demonstrate the limits of the phasing ability. - The Light6 (talk) 12:00, June 6, 2014 (UTC) ::::it might be that Jacks sword had special properties that allowed it to be effective against sprites, or perhaps davesprite in particular, afterall the sword came from his kernel, the only other cases we've seen of harmed sprites are the mortal spritesplosions, which is another case where elements of the sprite itself inflicted harm on itself... it would be helpful to know how what caused the lusus sprites deaths... it seems like even at this point sprites are largely a mystery Whohoohuwhu (talk) 14:34, June 6, 2014 (UTC) :::::I really do think the phasing thing can be attributed as well to "sprites are not able or allowed to prototype themselves", though it could definitely be an intelligence thing in addition. Also, Davesprite may not have had the chance to make himself intangible, as he had to be tangible in order to even hope of doing any damage to Jack. Also, maybe I missed it, but I tried watching Descend again to see the sprite phasing through a house and got nothing. 18:10, June 6, 2014 (UTC) ::::::I'm also having a hard time finding where a sprite phases through a wall, I checked a few other scenes and noticed something interesting in Becsprite did not have a sprite kernel form, I can not think of any good reason why that would be the case Whohoohuwhu (talk) 01:44, June 7, 2014 (UTC) ::::::: - After GCat teleports away Poppop's remains the kernelsprite returns to Jane by phasing through the roof. While there was a door it could have gone through that door was closed and as opposed to making a spiral movement needed to both head towards the door, through it and up at the same time, the kernelsprite went straight up. :::::::Other instants of sprites (albeit fully prototyped) phasing are :::::::As for Becsprite, that is also true of tier 2 Jaspersprite and Frogsprite, and is in fact already noted in the very first paragraph on the sprite page which includes a link to Hussie's formspring answer on a question about it. - The Light6 (talk) 02:07, June 7, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::I can't really tell for sure what happened in Jane: Enter, I guess I'll accept your explanation, but I think it might also have teleported, your explanation does seem to have more precedent, you are definitely right in every other regard Whohoohuwhu (talk) 02:40, June 7, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::Edit: I'm not seeing the formspring answer link or the explanation of this in the article (I don't even see it noted) am I just blind or is it not there Whohoohuwhu (talk) 02:54, June 7, 2014 (UTC) ←Resetting indent The third sentence covers sprites not having a "kernel" form pre-entry, the phrase "special prototyping" is the link to Hussie's formspring. - The Light6 (talk) 02:58, June 7, 2014 (UTC) :ok I see it now, guess I was blind Whohoohuwhu (talk) 03:07, June 7, 2014 (UTC)